COMMUNITY FORUM: Yes, illegal immigrants pay taxes

By John LaMar/Fremont
Wednesday, Oct 01, 2008 - 10:59:04 am CDT

Do illegal immigrants have to pay taxes?

According to the Internal Revenue Service, anyone who earns money in the United States is subject to tax laws. The IRS does not differentiate between immigrants who are here legally or illegally - their primary concern is to collect tax on any monies earned, regardless of the legal status of the individual earning the money.

Former IRS Commissioner Mark Everson put it this way in a speech given to the National Press Club: "We want your money whether you are here legally or not and whether you earned it legally or not."

If someone enters the U.S. illegally and begins working, that income is taxable and that individual is required to report any income earned to the IRS.

The requirements for an illegal immigrant to work in the United States are the same as they are for citizens. They must complete an I-9 form which shows proof of eligibility to work in the United States and they must complete a W-4 form which registers them for taxes and withholdings. One of the documents which can be used to complete the I-9 form is a Social Security number; another is a driver’s license. Quite often, illegal immigrants will make up, steal or purchase fake documents in order to complete the I-9 form so they can be hired by a business.

Once hired, persons working "on the books" are subject to the same tax laws as U.S. citizens. They pay federal, state and Social Security/Medicare taxes at the same rates as U.S. citizens. There are no exceptions for illegal immigrants.

If an illegal immigrant does not want to work "on the books" at a business or chooses to be self-employed, they are still required by law to report their income and to have that income taxed. The way the IRS expects these people to report their income and file their returns is by use of an Individual Tax Identification Number. To obtain an ITIN, a person needs to submit an application to the IRS and a document which serves as proof of identity, such as a driver’s license. Counterfeit driver’s licenses are sometimes purchased in order to obtain an ITIN because they are cheaper to buy than other forms of fraudulent identification, such as Social Security numbers or birth certificates.

Illegal immigrants may not necessarily receive the same benefits as citizens for the same tax dollar paid. For example, illegal immigrants paid "on the books" or who file a return using an ITIN are generally not entitled to receive Social Security benefits, even though they are having money deducted from their checks to fund Social Security. This is because under current law an alien who worked in the U.S. illegally can only become eligible for Social Security benefits by becoming a legal U.S. resident. The Social Security Administration has estimated that 75 percent of undocumented immigrants pay payroll taxes and they contribute $6 billion-$7 billion in Social Security funds they will be unable to claim because they are ineligible to receive Social Security benefits.

In addition to payroll taxes, people pay the same taxes every time they make a purchase where the goods and services are taxable. This includes vehicles, clothing, durable goods (washers and dryers, for example), tools, gasoline, etc. These taxes fund the majority of public services such as police, sheriff and fire services, roads maintenance, parks services and the like.

Of course, anytime anyone rents a house, apartment, mobile home, etc. they pay property taxes either directly (as part of their house payment) or indirectly (as payment to a landlord, who must pay property taxes on rental properties). These taxes cover the majority of state and local costs for schools and other services. These costs are paid whether someone is in the country legally or not.

Local employers most often mentioned in illegal immigration discussions - Hormel and Fremont Beef - pay their employees "on the books." In other words, the people working at those facilities are paying taxes according to U.S. tax laws.

The only way an illegal immigrant can avoid paying income taxes is to receive payment for work in cash and to fail to report that income. This is the same way that citizens and legal aliens can avoid paying income taxes. Additionally, businesses who pay their employees in cash and fail to report those payments may be in violation of US tax laws.

John LaMar is a member of the Mayor’s Task Force on Illegal Immigration. Community Forum is a regular feature of the Tribune’s Opinion. To contribute, contact Tracy Buffington, editor, at (402) 721-5000, Ext. 1436, or via e-mail at fremont.newsroom@lee.net.

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Dave Vance
Oct 1, 2008 1:52 PM
Thanks, John LeMar
Great article
Maybe this will help people understand,
But then again people with too much hate
still refuse to believe the truth.
Brian
Oct 1, 2008 5:59 PM
Dave,
its NOT about hatred or the "truth". The reason people are against illegal aliens is that THEY ARE ILLEGAL. Many people in American history or culture have immigrated here legally and were respected for their accomplishments. I am glad the illegal pay their taxes, but that does not change the fact they are ILLEGAL. Besides, it they have fake drivers liscense, or social security numbers, then they are committing identity theft as well as being illegal. So they are still crimminals wether they pay taxes or not.
Reality
Oct 1, 2008 7:06 PM
Reality

None of them are paying real estate taxes - they are renting - not contributing to the cost of running our schools, etc; hence the huge problem we are experiencing in Fremont today.
John LaMar
Oct 1, 2008 9:15 PM
To Reality:

Here is how I see it.

Anyone who pays rent is paying money to a landlord who must follow the laws associated with paying property taxes. Assuming that the landlord does pay property taxes, and assuming that the landlord uses a portion of the rent collected to pay those property taxes, then anyone who rents is paying property taxes, albeit indirectly, and therefore contributing to covering the expenses those taxes are collected to cover (namely, expenses associated with public schooling).

If the landlord isn't paying property taxes (which may result in legal problems for the landlord), or if the landlord is paying property taxes with income other than what is generated through rent income, then I suppose you would be correct that renters don't pay property taxes.

If there are any landlords out there reading this, your comments would be appreciated.

Thanks!
Joe Everybody
Oct 1, 2008 9:30 PM
You have to be joking! Anyone that has ever brown bagged a lunch can tell you how to "Legally" avoid the majority of payroll taxes, claim 15 dependents, duh! There are plenty of other dodges for those that can change their name and I dare say it's more than 25% of the Illegal population that are cheating on their taxes. Heck one self proclaimed Illegal admitted to tax fraud during our July 29 ordinance hearing, I was sitting right behind her mother. Being a questioning soul, how does the government have hard numbers on the percentage of tax cheating Illegals in the first place if, as they claim, they can't be found. Sort of a question that screams to be answered. While it's true Illegals do not qualify for Social Security (Project Appleseed is currently working to change that one folks) they do qualify for food stamps and a host of other tax funded services. If you've been reading the local papers they've run articles about Illegals sueing for workers compensation and other benefits in addition to the free health care that they already receive. Yes, officially Illegals are SUPPOSE to pay ALL of their taxes but that's about as likely as walking into any major city and proclaiming there are no murders since after all, it's against the law. Perhaps Skip's Panel should stop wasting tax payers dollars asking people that are part of the problem opting instead to sit on any street corner in Fremont and talk to their neighbors.
Andy S
Oct 2, 2008 5:43 AM
when they are filling out the w4 forms they list many children so the taxes are not taken out. So big deal they pay taxes when they shop. How much is that?? They also know the loop holes to get around many things after all they know how to get here illegaly how to get phoney drivers lic. welfare and other things Including YOUR Social Security number. All the while they sit back and laugh at us.
A friend of mine said his neighbor wanted to know why he was getting paid $50.00 less then his friend. Well the SS number he was useing was for someone that was haveing child support taken out of his pay check
Andy S
Oct 2, 2008 9:56 AM
thanks Joe Everybody
About time someone spoke the truth. I love my country but as I see it the Task Force is creating more reasons for them to come to El Fremont and stay here.
People like that are destroying the once great country I love. Look at who is on it everyone that voted no for the ordenance and will profet from them being here.I am taking the patition around you would be surprise how many say no. All it is, is to put it on the ballot for us to VOTE on it. They are taking MY RIGHT to vote away from me and I resent that. Someone PLEASE tell me what is wrong with the people of El Fremont. Don't they see what is happening to their town
Bignell
Oct 2, 2008 10:38 AM
Here is how it works at the Mexican Restaurant out side of Fort Sill Oklahoma where I live. My buddy married an illegal Mexican and she got a job at the restaurant. She said that the owners have about 20 SSN numbers that they constantly reuse. When one person quits or gets fired, the next person they higher uses the next SSN in rotation. Thankfully she is a citizen now. I don't understand how people get so confused about ILLEGAL.
Nancy Boyles
Oct 2, 2008 11:49 AM
Andy S:
I am one of those members of the Task Force that you are talking about creating more problems. Well sir, with all due respect at least the members of the Task Force are trying to bring some infomation and education to the public. As much as I would like certain things changed, there are laws blocking those choices. What we are trying to accomplish is finding out the facts, the laws and what remedies that could be used in solving this problem. Many hours have been spent researching information that we can pass along to you and the public. We are not paid for this and many of us have missed time off our jobs to volunteer. If you have a problem with how we are going about this, then by all means let me know how you would go about it. I would more than welcome it. This problem is not black and white and neither are the solutions, so please do not shoot the messenger. We are here to help educate and inform, we do not control the outcome. Please educate yourself before making accusations that we are creating problems. Maybe if you did you could direct your passion for complaining to educating yourself and others we could get this problem solved and finally heal the divide in this town. You may think we are a joke, but I am proud that at least we have tried!! Task Force member and proud of it.
Mr Obvious
Oct 2, 2008 12:02 PM
Thanks Joe for explianing this to the sheep that actually believe this story or the blogs. It is a fact that they claim many children for 3 years and don't file a return. When they get audited, then they disappear, change their name and come back.
h
Oct 2, 2008 12:15 PM
I'm glad that all of you think that illegal immigrants are the only one who cheat on their taxes. No american citizen would ever do that...no THAT could NEVER happen....
Brian
Oct 2, 2008 12:31 PM
to h
I dont doubt that some legal citizens DO cheat on their taxes. However thats NOT the issue here. Its the ILLEGAL aspect of immigration, and the IDENTITY THEFT that some illegals use. Besides, IF a legal american citizen gets caught cheating on their taxes they get hammered by the IRS. If an illegal is caught, they get deported. Have a good day.
John LaMar
Oct 2, 2008 12:52 PM
Folks:

The intent of this article was not to persuade or suggest improvements--the intent was to inform people of what the current laws are relative to tax responsibilities of illegal immigrants. Turns out, those responsiblities are the same as they are for legal US residents--the IRS wants your money regardless of whether you are in the country legally or not and whether you earned it legally or not.

To Joe Everybody:
This is no joke. If you or anyone else knows of people who are committing tax fraud, those people can be reported to the IRS anonymously. The information on how to do so is on the IRS web site.

The article states that the monies paid in by illegal immigrants is an estimate. There are no claims of hard facts made or implied.

If you want to know how many illegal immigrants live in the US today I respectfully suggest that you contact your senator and congressman and inform them that you want federal immigration policy changed to allow your question to be asked in the first place. Everyone associated with this issue would love to have that answer. I am not being sarcastic when I say this, either--until we know the scope of the issue we cannot make intelligent decisions about how to deal with it.

I have asked people on the street these questions but the responses I got were akin to, "Everyone knows they don't pay taxes." More specifically, people have told me that they know for a fact that Mexicans--they chose to use that particular ethnic group, not I--don't pay any gasoline tax when they buy it, don't pay sales tax on cars, etc. I would then ask them how they know this and the reply was always something like, "Well, I know someone who knows." As a citizen of this community it is my opinion that it would be irresponsible to craft public policy based on information which cannot be verified at best or is wholly inaccurate at worst. When I did my research, what I found was that in some cases the statements were wholly inaccurate.

Yes, people cheat on their taxes; yes, it is wrong. You'll get no argument from me there. But with so much at stake here I think we owe it to ourselves to at least have a realistic picture of what we are dealing with.


To Andy S:
If you have questions about the truthfulness of what I wrote, please feel free to call the IRS yourself and verify my information.

To everyone else:

Here is some additional information that was not posted in the original article which you may find useful:

I have heard people say that when the Vietnamese immigrants arrived in the mid 1970's they didnt have to pay taxes, so I asked the IRS about exceptions to tax laws for immigrants. According to the IRS, there are no treaties which exist for illegal immigrants, nor are their waivers for tax liabilities for refugees. If you are in the US and earning money, you are subject to US tax laws, period.


Regarding the ITIN, not every person who uses an ITIN is in the country illegally. However, there was no way for the IRS to tell if ITIN users were in the country illegally, nor will the IRS make it their business to attempt to determine the legal status of taxpayers.

It bears repeating that whether the person is in the United States legally or illegally is not the concern of the IRS. They exist to enforce tax law and to collect taxes, not to enforce immigration policy. In fact, the IRS is forbidden by law (IRS Code 6103) from turning over tax information to the branch of the government whose responsibility it is to enforce immigration laws, Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE).


I think it is best for the community to have a clear understanding of the issue at hand before we cast any vote or sign any petition. It is my sincere hope that the information provided, and the ensuing debate, will serve to inform the public so that they can make the decision they believe to be the right one.

So while we cannot say for sure how much taxes illegal immigrants are paying we also cannot say that they pay no taxes. As the saying goes, the devil is in the details.

I believe we should start the discussions about how to effectively deal with the situation from that common understanding and work collectively from there.

We can all agree on that, right?
you are a joke
Oct 2, 2008 12:55 PM
Andy,
Do you realize how ignorant and dumb you make yourself sound when you call Fremont, "El Fremont"? I see many Sudan immigrants and Vietnamese immigrants here along with the Hispanic population. So you are obviously racist againt Hispanics otherwise you wouldn't put a Hispanic word in front of Fremont.

But, if you think you are funny-fine...whatever helps you sleep better at night!

ps...in past posts you've mentioned that you rent, so you aren't helping pay taxes for schools either!
n a b
Oct 2, 2008 1:40 PM
To Andy S.
I would have to say there are more
bigots in Fremont than illegals.
blue collar
Oct 2, 2008 1:50 PM
You Fremonters that cannot except people
of different culture are failures to society, You all better wake up and really concentrate on what is really happening to this country. You know the
old saying "A man with a briefcase can
steal far more than a man with a gun"
Why
Oct 2, 2008 2:02 PM
Why do so many of you people insist on repeatedly defending the ILLEGAL immigrants. I think you are missing the point!!! I think the point might have been said before. Now what was it? Hmmmmmm? What was it........ oh yeah ILLEGAL!!
to nancy and john
Oct 2, 2008 2:28 PM
Thank you for the information and what you are trying to do as members of the Task Force.

However, this article no matter how well intended, takes a pro-illegal position by defending them on the issue of paying taxes and attempts to give some kind of legitimacy to the businesses that employ them (Hormel, Nebraska Beef). To use an old phrase, "you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig".

This is exactly what most of the community expects from the task force. They expect this group to spin or even create reasons why these illegals aren't really that bad and this article supports that perception.

It is very naive to think they will pay taxes willingly when they have already entered the country illegally and are using stolen or fake documents to get a job. What difference does it make to them if they break another U.S. law? It's just another thing for them to laugh about.

We really need to look at this not as illegal immigration issue but as deliberate attempt at the re-colonization of America. These criminals don't want to be Americans, they just want to expand Mexico as far north as possible and destroy as much of our culture and way of life as they can. We simply can not let that happen.

Until we hear or read something from this task that results in the restriction and hopefully the complete removal of these criminals from the community, you'll not gain the support of Fremonters. There is just to much skepticism that your in the pockets of the employers on the task force (who shouldn't be on this task force to begin with).
Andy S
Oct 2, 2008 3:14 PM
to
Nancy Boyles
I have been involved in this for over two years now and I am quite informed. The task force and some city council members have talked about cost to the public. I beg to differ with you also being sued. You have intimadated the citizens. Almost all of you and I said almost all,have to gain from not passing the ordenance. No one has listened to us and we resent this. You are doing only what you want. You all have made the citizens of fremont scared. They are even afriad to sign the patition to put it on the ballot for the voters to vote on it.
I have never seen a task force acomplish anything of value. And I have lived in Phila and NYC so I am not a small town hick. Also in many foreign countries. I bet the fartherest you have been is Omaha
pokey
Oct 2, 2008 3:28 PM
John LaMar: You asked for any comments from a "landlord". I am one. I have no idea if any of my tenents are "illegals". Some are elderly caucasions and have been my tenents for over 25 years. It seems that some people want me to go ask them their citizenship. No thanks. Thanks to cooler heads that have prevailed [thus far]. Yes, my tenents pay my real estate taxes. I am just the middle-man.
Dear Pokey the Landlord
Oct 2, 2008 3:41 PM
Dear Landlord: If you're a landlord in Ward 3, could you please check on your properties on a weekly basis. You need to buy more and bigger garbage receptables for your property and quit trying to be cheap. Get to your properties and pick up all the garbage that is blowing in the neighbors' yards from open bags and bags spilling all over the ground because you're too cheap to take the responsibility for your properties and the city is too lax in monitoring you.
John LaMar
Oct 2, 2008 4:35 PM
To "To Nancy and John":

I respectfully disagree with your statement that the article takes a pro-illegal stance. i sure hope it doesnt because I am personally against the presence of undocumented aliens in the US.

As I read it again, what I see is that it states that illegal immigrants are subject to IRS tax laws and that in the case of Social Security they dont collect a benefit. I dont see anywhere in the article where anyone is defended. Or where a particular point of view is expressed, for that matter.

If people think there is any spin in this article, please feel free to do your own research. By all means, have at it. I have no problem admitting if I am wrong because the goal here is to provide the community with as much factual information as possible so that we can make an informed decision regarding how we should deal with the situation. However, if people do wish to challenge what is presented here I would appreciate it if the challenges were done respectfully and if people would sign their names.

Lipstick on a pig? Dealing with this issue is more like wrestling an 800-pound gorilla. And to coin another old saying: When you are wrestling an 800 pound gorilla you dont quit when you're tired; you quit when the gorilla is tired.

The more we look into this issue the more we find that we are limited in what we can do by the federal laws which govern these things and I dont mind telling you it is darned frustrating at times. But we can't quit just because we are tired.

Nor should we confuse activity with accomplishment. We must act deliberately and with care enough to ensure that we dont make a difficult situation even worse.

I think everyone would benefit from taking a good, hard look at the information that is presented here, as well as in previous colums about this subject, and start asking themselves what some practical solutions to the problem might be. Start connecting the dots and see where we can make progress. I would like to emphasize PRACTICAL--mass deportation of every illegal immigrant is possible, but is it really practical?

I know you all may not like what you are hearing from the task force--believe me there are times when I can't believe what I am hearing when I ask some of these questions. For example, it really floored me that the IRS and ICE are not cooperating on this issue. So what can we do? I'd suggest that the law needs to be rewritten so that those two agencies can cooperate without treading upon the rights of persons legally present in the US. IT CAN BE DONE.

Let's keep the dialogue going. Let's keep talking about it. We can find solutions.
meth labs
Oct 2, 2008 4:41 PM
And how can a greedy landlord sleep at night as he rents a former meth lab to women with children whether they are legal or illegal. The properties need to be PROPERLY CLEANED and INSPECTED before the landlord casualy hangs a For Rent sign in the window!!
Nancy Boyles
Oct 2, 2008 5:14 PM
Andy S:
I started out this Task Force in a very single mindset and I was adamently for the ordinance. I truly beleived that everything is as simple as black & white. Well dear Andy, after spending many hours of my time researching this issue I have found out that things are not as simple as I would like. Give that credit to the government that likes to complicate matters but please do not blame me and the task force. Our mission on this task force is education, information and what we can and cannot do within the confines of the laws and pass the information along to the public. We are not out there trying to scare people or coerce them. I too feel let down from time to time when I uncover some information or laws that we as citizens are unable to legally enforce. I have nothing too gain from being on the task force other than the satisfaction of knowing I did all I could to let my voice be heard and learned all I could to educate myself about this issue. Andy, I do not own a house, I rent. I work 40 + hours a week to make just enough to pay my bills. I am average joe all the way and am not as you implied in anyone's pocket. I am quite vocal on my own merits so I do not need anyone to voice my views. I am a member of the task force and proud to be on it and also proud to have taken the time to become educated by other members of the task force. Each and every one of them has got something to offer. Please allow us to do the job we volunteered to do. By the way Andy, I am a big traveler, been all over the states, ah shucks I have even been to Lincoln. In the future please do not presume to judge me until you have had the chance to talk to me and really know me.
Tired of Morons-Used To Be Bobo
Oct 2, 2008 5:21 PM
Since so much of the controversy focuses on the economic impact of illegal immigration, I formed a task force of one to do my own study.

For the past 3 months, I've been reading both the Wall Street Journal and Investor's Business Daily, 2 ultra-conservative publications that focus on all things economic. I looked for articles and editorials that opined about what the negative economic effects of illegal immigration might be. I figured, if they don't know, who does?

In a nutshell, here's what I found:






Hope this helps.
Tired of Morons-Used To Be Bobo
Oct 2, 2008 6:40 PM
More results from my task force of 1:
Another big complaint is that the immies are taking jobs from Americans.

I read an article about an ICE raid in August at a parachute manufacturer in Woodfin, NC. 57 illegals were rounded up. The company is struggling to replace them. 80 percent of the applicants are Hispanics. Seems the Anglos aren't exactly in a big rush to make parachutes for our men in uniform.

A company from nearby Asheville did however fill some jobs with locals after Hispanics left out of fear of another raid. That should make you necks happy. At any rate, the company packages compact discs, and was pretty much forced to hire homeless people when no one else wanted the jobs. And that's a good thing. But the city ended up footing the bill for the homeless people's bus fare. And they're still homeless. At least the immie pays rent.

And of course, Postville, IA. After the Agriprocessor raid, the company targeted for replacements, not the local workforce, but Sudanese and Somali workers in Minneapolis.
Ward Three Resident
Oct 2, 2008 6:52 PM
I 2nd that comment about slumlords in Ward 3.

Your responsibilities extend beyond just signing those forms when you purchase your properties, you know.

And check your properties weekly and make repairs and clean-up as quickly as possible. In otherwords, stop being invisible owners.
Dont quite understand
Oct 2, 2008 8:45 PM
I appreciate the posting from John LeMar and have to agree with what he stated is true BUT lets face it the only explaining we are getting right now is the illegals are paying taxes by using FAKE drivers licenses and Social Security cards. That is no different than a person shooting and killing somebody and escaping to California and getting a FAKE drivers license and stealing somebody's social security card. It is still wrong. We cannot explain that part away. The task force in Fremont won't solve anything but post some letters explaining how the illegals are paying taxes. We have to get our congressman and women and senators on the phone and tell them (Not ask them) to do something and do it right away to solve this problem. The best thing the task force could do right now is go before there representive's and lay the law down to them and tell them this what the people in Fremont want. If they can't get the job done in Washington maybe we should elect somebody that will.
John LaMar
Oct 3, 2008 7:29 AM
To "Don' Quite Understand":

Actually you are hitting the nail squarely on the head and have a clear understanding of what the roles of the task force and federally elected officials are.

The primary role of the task force is here to educate and make recommendations. The particular subcommittee I am on--Facts and Education--exists primarily to, well, provide facts as best they can be known and to educate the reader as best we can. Other task force subcommittees, such as Law Enforcement, worked directly with ICE to improve the level of cooperation between those two groups.

The role of federally elected officials is, in part, to listen to the constituency and act based on what their constituency tells them to do.

Perhaps you, like I, become mad as heck (stronger language should be used but is unprintable) when, as Dan Rosenbaum stated in the public forum held on this issue, our Congress holds hearings about steroids in baseball when they should be addressing issues which affect national sovereignty and security. We--the citizens of this city and this nation--should be demanding that they do this.

And we still need to keep an eye on them when they do act! Has anyone seen the walls that are being built on the southern US border? If you want to see your federal dollars in action go to the PBS web site and search for the program entitled "Now." Then search for programs related to the wall being constructed and view those programs. Look at those maps and tell me if the placement of walls two miles this side of the US border--in effect placing homes of US citizens on the other side of the wall--makes sense (strike one). Pay close attention when they talk about the communication infrastructure which was put together to help monitor security on the walls. Especially the part where they say that it was put together without input from the people who were going to operate it (strike two). Then hold on to your wallet when they say how much it costs (strike three).

The task force alone cannot be the voice for the entire community on a federal level. Yes, we have representatives from state and federal government on our task force but even with that we are a small number. If every registered voter in the state were to write their senators and congresspeople we might get people's attention.

So I ask everyone reading this--when was the last time you wrote a letter to your senator or congressperson asking them to do something about this issue? And if you did write a letter, did you write just ONE letter?

The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and the people holding the grease gun are in Washington. GET THEIR ATTENTION.
Truth
Oct 3, 2008 10:09 AM
How do you know Fremont has a illegal
immigrant problem, you can't say it's
a problem until you know how many there are. Just because they are brown and speak spanish does not make them illegal. At least the Task Force is
going about it with an open mind and putting in perspective the laws and the truth, I for one support them and think they are doing a good job.
Joe Everybody
Oct 3, 2008 11:08 AM
I've personally chatted with members of the task force. When debating certain aspects of the burdens illegal immigration puts on our town I mentioned Title 8 which drew a blank from the committee member. When I was questioned I repeated myself, "You know 1324a of the US Code a subsection of Title 8", still nothing. Then I asked the man, " How can you be seriously looking into the failed Fremont Ordinence without having any idea of the law on which it was based"? From the conversations I've had it's my opinion that Mayor Skip Edward's panel largely means well but is being led to investigate none facts, we're chasing Prairie Muffins. The purpose of the committee would appear to be keeping us hoping for an "Easy Fix" when the best solution is to immediately direct our efforts to shutting down the means in which dishonest US citizens participate in Human Trafficing otherwise know as slavery. Do we as a Society need to invest years getting a firm count on a changing number of abused people before ending a pratice outlawed in this country in 1863? Frankly, I don't care precisely how many illegals are in this country since the number should be none, perhaps we should operate from that prespective.
to slumlords
Oct 3, 2008 11:43 AM
How about occasionally driving by your properties??Or screening your renters?? When people have their windows open with fans in front of them in 20 degree weather, it should set off a red flag. But these slumlords never go by their garbage adorned rentals to monitor them.They put the entire neighborhood in danger.
John LaMar
Oct 3, 2008 1:34 PM
To "Joe Everybody":

If you have chatted with members of the task force would you please sign your name to your post? Unless Joe Everybody is your name; in that case I apologize for the assumption. Regardless I am sure that whomever you spoke to would like the opportunity to continue the discussion.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Title 8 of the US code Section 1324a deals with the unlawful employment of aliens. This is a federal law with federal jurisdiction, something which has been problematic to this point in the discussion. But perhaps there is a way around it.

You appear to be someone who is informed about the law. If you would, please state here which specific sections of that US code should be reviewed. Also, please state whether or not you are an attorney with experience in federal immigration law litigation--I think the public should know if they are hearing from an expert in the field or a layperson, such as myself.

Also, if you would please provide ideas on how--within the limits of current law--we can "...immediately shut down the means in which dishonest US citizens participate in Human Trafficking." Please begin by stating what that means actually is so that the readers can be completely informed regarding your ideas.

Would you also please "connect the dots" on something for me I would appreciate it. I dont see the correlation between slavery and the issue at hand. In general terms, I dont believe people are being forced to come to the US against their will, then forced to work at the risk of their lives. I cannot say for sure that this NEVER occurs, and I have seen cases where workers wer exploited, but in general terms I dont believe that equates to slavery. Based on what I have observed it appears to me that people are coming here willingly. I have seen the news reports about human trafficking and while that is a despicable practice I dont believe it is the same as being sold as property to another human being and being forced to work , risking your life if you refuse.

I think that information would be helpful in discovering how we can more effectively deal with this issue.

Lastly, I'd like to comment on your statement that you dont care how many illegals are in this country, since there should be none. You go on to suggest that perhaps we should operate from that perspective. I have heard other people say the same thing, and frankly I agree. The single greatest act of domestic terror occurred in this century on 9-11-01 because of the presence of undocumented aliens in the US.

Still, I find myself going back to a need to know how many undocumented aliens are present in the US before we can really determine the impact of any course of action. I can't seem to get around that, mostly because I know our resources are going to be limited. For example, the infrastructure to handle the influx of the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants living in the US simply does not exist. I am talking about jail space, buses to transport everyone to airports and airplanes to fly them all back to their country of origin. Perhaps you can explain how a reasonable strategy can be developed without knowing the number of people we are talking about removing from the US? I'd appreciate hearing your ideas on that.


Thanks!
from nancy and john
Oct 3, 2008 4:23 PM
To John LaMar,

Thank you for taking the time to explain what you are trying to do by responding to my post. I appreciate your response and will wait for the task force findings and recommendations. Good luck with the gorilla
Dont quite understand
Oct 3, 2008 7:20 PM
To John LaMar: Thank you for your reply and I appreciate everything you are doing. Yes we have to get on our elected officials to get this solved and hopefully they will but I probably won't hold my breath. Our elected officals don't want to lose any votes of the minorities so hopefully after the elections they will do something. The only issue I have is with Tired of Morons-Used to be Bobo. This person should become a elected official. First of all he talks about a parachute manufacturer in Woodfin, NC where 57 illegals were rounded up and now they are having a tough time replacing them to make parachutes for our men in uniform. If he or her just looked around and seen what the pay is for any job after a illegal or minority leaves is just a joke. If you want to work for nothing that is the place to go. Second He or Her is reading the Wall Street Jounal and the Investors Buisness Daily and can't find anything about illegals. Geez what a surprise that is. Of course they aren't going to print anything about illegals. The big companies enjoy the low wages they pay out to the illegals or any minority that will work for that sort of pay.
Tired of Morons-Used To Be Bobo
Oct 4, 2008 8:30 AM
To Don't Understand:
Here's what you don't understand:
Higher wages are no different than a tax. Companies avoid them like the plague. State taxes too high? Move to another state. Wages too high? Close the plant and move it to another country. Whose fault is that? Yours, the American consumer.
John LaMar
Oct 4, 2008 10:20 AM
To Pokey:
Thanks for the reply--I know that the information provided by one person does not necessarily represent the behavior of all landlords, but it was good to hear information close to the source. For the record, I have no idea who you are and do not know if you have rentals in Ward 3.

To Don't Quite Understand:
Don't hold your breath--you need to breathe when you are writing those letters to Congressman Fortenberry and Senator Nelson!

To quote Teddy Roosevelt, we must "Do what we can, where we are, with what we have."

As we continue to discuss this issue, it seems to me that a prudent course of action is to firs ask that everyone please listen to the information being provided by the task force and consider it COLLECTIVELY so that we can make an intelligent, informed decision on this issue.

What is the TOTAL picture? How is law enforcement connected to federal immigration policy? How is tax policy connected to enforcement? How do we want our dollars spent to address this issue? How can we craft a reasonable immigration policy without violating the civil rights of citizens/authorized residents? What is possible and what is simply desirable?

This is a complex issue, folks. Shouts on the street corner, rants on the front porch and calls for "the government to do something" aren't going to get the job done. We have to expect more from ourselves. We can do better than what we are doing.

There is a level of interdependency woven into the immigration issue that makes finding solutions very challenging. But I have complete confidence that we can craft resonable solutions.

Besides--the gorilla isn't tired yet.

Let's keep the dialogue open, honest and respectful. And let's hear some ideas!
Dont Quite Understand
Oct 4, 2008 9:24 PM
Ok John LaMar---I will start breathing again so I can write the congressman. LOL. To: Tired of Morons-Used to Be Bobo.What you posted about the companies avoiding taxes and etc. I totally agree 100 percent. Please explain to us, how the American consumer can stop the companies from shipping everything to China and other countries. This is the reason I don't see anything in the Wall Street Journal either about Illegals. If the companies can't get cheap labor they have other countries to do it. With the cost of living the workers need to earn a decent wage but that is hard to do when the illegals will work for peanuts.
Andy Schnatz
Oct 5, 2008 6:06 PM
To Mr Lamar
For your infomation
The police can send their officers to the ICE acadamy and they WOULD enforce the Federal Laws once they are certified by ICE. For your infomation our great Chief had more reasons they can not do it. One was it was to far and second it eas to expensive. ICE has grants to pay the cost of the training.
I beleave it would make more work for him and he likes it the way it is. The best equipment for the police is a well trained officer. This way we can deal with illegals. You have called me races well all im am agains are the ones that come here illegaly. And the word Hispanic covers EVERYONE south of the borderand of Spanish desent. NOT JUST MEXICANS.Some say we should clean up the drug problem. Well wher do the drugs come from, Mexica. Opps, I guess I am being racies again.
Joe Everybody
Oct 5, 2008 9:53 PM
I thank the task force for taking the heat on this issue however if you start from a failed assumption I wouldn’t count on a productive solution to follow. Going back to my Murder Rate analogy what you are telling Fremont is that you wish to see how many people are killed over an undetermined time period so you can correctly and efficiently organize the appropriate response, that way no ones feeling get hurt. This, “Lets wait and count the bodies” approach may seem logical to the out of town interests determined to force the financial burden of sustaining their Illegal work force on the average Fremont resident however, by ignoring existing laws this is completely unnecessary because we already know what is happening. A quick read of the Federal and State Constitutions as well as current Federal Immigration Law makes it more than clear that waiting for the Federal Government to solve our troubles just isn’t going to happen thus by default it’s the right of “The People”. The Fremont Tribunes own online poll showed that more than 60% approved of taking action such as several States and Local governments already have, we ain’t the first to tackle this issue. Perhaps it would be helpful for Skip’s Panel to first look at the States that have successful Laws against businesses trafficking in human beings and proceed from a proven plan rather than hope that we stumble into something as we go along. Nothing personal but I’m all for taking appropriate action as is already in the US Code subsection 1324a under Title 8 instead of attempting to out wait an issue that has overwhelmed other towns our size.
What Can I Say Im Just Liberal
Oct 5, 2008 11:14 PM
I am slightly humored by how childish, and ignorant some of you are being. Some of you are making me feel OLD at 20. I for one, am a fan of diversity. Although, SOMETHING does need to change. Somehow little Fremont is on the cutting-edge of this immigration battle, and our task-force is working hard to find a solution of some sort. I actually have quite a few minority acquaintances in Fremont and at my college, and I dare not ask them their legal status. I think it's really wrong of some people to make assumptions about other people, and generalize it to a whole race/culture. I have a feeling that some of the figures and statistics people are throwing out in these comments are totally made up. That's just wrong, if you don't have hard evidence, you might as well not use it. I could ramble for.. quite a while. But all in all, Fremont just really needs to calm down. Immigration is not going to cause the world to end. The presidential election may. :)
John LaMar
Oct 6, 2008 8:30 AM
To Andy Schnatz:

I, too have raised the question of using local law enforcement under 287(g). The response I got was that while the training itself was free the cost of paying the officers while they are in training is not, nor is the cost of overtime pay required to cover the absent officers while they are in training.

I do know that some communities have chosen to go this route, such as in Maricopa County, AZ (Phonenix metro area) where the sheriff there has tents set up in the desert to house undocumented aliens. However, the scope of the issue there appears to be much larger. My understanding is that somewhere north of 30% of the entire population of the county (not just 30% of the immigrant population--30% of the ENTIRE population) is undocumented. That equates to hundreds of thousands of undocumented persons.

Perhaps our community should ask itself if the scope of our issue is similar and if the resources required to address the issue are available and affordable. Which is going to be a difficult question to answer since we dont know for sure how many undocumented aliens are living in our community. Why dont we know? Because we are not allowed to ask in many cases, such as at the hospital or schools. Why aren't we allowed to ask? Because the law prohibits it.

Seems to me the thing we need to do is change the law first.

As to your charge that I have called you a racist, I do not believe I have.

To Joe Everybody:
What failed assumption are you suggesting that the task force is starting from? I've heard that we are starting from many, so if you would be specific I'd appreciate it.

Your analogy and suggestion that we are waiting to see what the scope of the problem is before acting is accurate, in my opinion. I believe this is the course of action we must take because the resources required to address this issue are limited--we only have so many law officers, so many jails, so many buses, so many airplanes, etc.

There are people involved with this issue whose job it is to ensure that city tax dollars are spent responsibly, among other things. Those people have been a part of these discussions for many months and they have all come to the same conclusion, which is that to move forward with a plan that will not stand up in court would not only be costly but a waste of time. We're talking two state Attorneys General, our city attorney and our county attorney, all of whom have practiced law. I have not, so I do not feel qualified to question their recommendations beyond, "Are you sure?" That question has been asked and the respose has been, "Yes, we're sure."

Also, there are several cases where ordinances have been passed, only to be rendered useless because they could not stand up in court, most recently in Dallas, TX. I cannot put web site addresses on these posts, but if you search for it you can find it pretty easily.

Because there is money to be made and careers to be established in cases such as this, it is almost certain that any ordinance we pass will be challenged. As I understand the law, the moment that the law is challenged in court the ordinance is rendered unenforceable, and therefore useless, until a court has ruled on the case. Which brings us right back to where we started--making sure that any ordinance we pass is lawful before we bring it to a vote.

That is the responsiblity of the leadership of our community, and we should hold them accountable for doing that.

Additionally,our citizens should be aware of the possible consequences of any action they take as a part of trying to resolve this issue.

I am not much of a gambler, so if I am going to get into the cage with the 800 pound gorilla I want to know as well as I can just how tired he is. This one appears to be fully rested...for now.
Mandi
Oct 6, 2008 11:41 AM
THANK YOU to what can I say I am just liberal! The citizens of Fremont just don't get it!
Brian
Oct 6, 2008 12:07 PM
To the Liberal college student who posted 10-5, 2008 at 11:14 pm.
There is nothing wrong with diversity and no one is against diversity in general. I have freinds who practice different religeons than I do and one of my sisters is dating a hispanic/caucasion man who's family has been in the US for several generations. HOWEVER, what you & other liberals dont understand is that MOST americans want immigrants to be LEGAL. How hard can that be. Many sports & Hollywood individuals ARE immigrants and no one complains unless they PERFORM badly--(or fill up the media with tabloid type fodder for thier private lives) NOT their immigration status. Have a good day.
Leonard Novotny
Oct 6, 2008 12:45 PM
Illegal immigrants own very little property, there fore when they rent housing they pay no tax dollars to our schools, they all want their children
educated here in the states over populate the education system, where the State of Nebraska has to subsides to the schools, let alone their medical bills.
Joe Everybody
Oct 6, 2008 1:21 PM
You are completely missing the point, again! Let’s say your numbers are spot on with 30% of some areas being illegal then we have a massive problem that will kill not only our town but our Nation as well. Are you aware that several law firms are already starting to sue on behalf of illegal seeking to collect Social Security that we have no idea if they paid into, what’s that going to cost us? According to Project Appleseed they wish to Nationalize all “12 Million” Illegal’s immediately then allows them to petition under the Immediate Relation clause in the Nationalization code. Do the math for the next five years. That could be 30 million new Americans many ready to collect Social Security without paying a dime legally or otherwise. Once this is fully realized then those new Americans can petition themselves for Immediate Relations making 100 million new Americans within 10 years more than half of which are already of retirement age and we need to wait, for what? Speaking to the various social groups pushing this insanity it becomes abundantly clear that this idea of doing nothing will cause a financial crisis that will make the current 700 billion bailout look like chump change.

Speaking about Sheriff Joe in Arizona I do believe from the positive results he is getting without challenge that this is a proven idea. If you remove the means of supporting an Illegal Subculture people leave on their own. Have you read the news out of California since the current financial mess has killed the economy? Illegals are leaving to return home with their fortunes made in our country. Look at the cast of characters like the ACLU lining up to sue us and you wonder if they will sue? News Flash, they are going to sue regardless of what we do so ask yourself if we as a town wish to kowtow to a bunch of big city lawyers looking to make a quick buck? To use the idiotic argument that we maybe sued isn’t a valid reason to destroy our town and is narrow minded merely rearranging cost, not preventing it. From what I’m reading perhaps we should speak to the fools that killed the mortgage markets since it sounds like we are going to adopt the same policy of cook the books for easy immediate gains ignoring the fact that we stand to lose everything. When this none action sinks our town will Hormel or Fremont Beef stand by our side or move? Ask yourself who has something to gain by doing nothing and who will be living here after they have made there millions by tossing the cost of their illegal work force on Fremont residents.

For the young Liberals out their welcome to the Political World however feelings don’t pay the bills. Speak to the Appleseed Group then watch their Open Border Video with a mind to what poverty really is. Having traveled the World I’ve seen real poverty much of which is the result of bad government not our way of life. Mexico, which is the sole focus of the Open Borders crowd is a top ten oil producing country so why only Mexico, why not say…..Darfur? This isn’t about ending poverty it’s about human trafficking for easy corporate gains paid for by fewer and fewer USA citizens, I invite you to care but do your homework, this idea will only spread poverty, not end it.
Scott
Oct 6, 2008 1:24 PM
This is what the illegals are doing. Translated into words that the supporters of the illegals can understand...

I and my family show up at your house, we break in, we set up camp on your sofa, we demand that you feed us and we demand that you provide us medical care. Imagine this, There's nothing you can do about it.

How would that go over? Would you let us stay? I have a feeling you wouldn't.
I think you would call the cops and have us arrested for trespassing. And you would be expected to do so.
So how is the removal of illegals any different? It's not. They are trespassing criminals. It's that simple.
David
Oct 6, 2008 2:50 PM
to Leonard Novotny - what do you not understand about the fact that the renters indirectly pay the property tax through their monthly rent checks?
Lynn
Oct 6, 2008 3:20 PM
To John LaMar,

Arizona's Tent City is there because of Sherrif Joe, who feels that the inmates don't deserve comfort while staying in jail. He makes them wear pink underware and socks and feeds them bologna sandwiches.

I don't think that he does this to cut cost, I belive he does this because it is what they deserve. Could you image being in the middle of the Arizona desert with a fan, pink underware and a bologna sandwich? I can and it makes me NOT want to committ crimes.

Also, Arizona has a much large illegal immigration problem than Nebraska because they are on the boarder. In some towns there are many more border patrole cars then there are cop cars.

And to all...illegal immigration is not just a hispanic thing, it is an ILLEGAL thing. If you want to enjoy the comforts of America, do it the right and legal way, no matter your ethnicity. Just as I would expect if I went to another country, they would expect me to. We already cater to illegal immigrants too much, we have everything in several different languages, do you think that when we go to other countries they do that for us? NO. So, we should learn from them and not be so nice. Again, you want to live here? Become legal, pay taxes, learn the language and don't be a deadbeat. Also, to Americans currently living here that are draining the system, GET A JOB, CLEAN UP, HAVE SOME SELF RESPECT, TAKE SOME RESPONSABILITY or move to another country!
Andy S
Oct 6, 2008 5:55 PM
to lynn
I am white and have lived in South Africa for many years. If I was illegal there and got caught I would be immeadely put in jail, I would have been raped and abused there and then deported. No questions asked and would have recived a free gift of AIDs while in prision. That is the way they handel if over there. And becoming legal is a big problem and cost for you not like here.
John LaMar
Oct 6, 2008 9:16 PM
To "Joe Everybody":

I sure wish you would leave your name. You sound like someone our city attorney and state attorney general should be talking to, not to mention our city council. If you dont want to leave your name, would you please contact those folks directly so they may benefit from your knowledge? Thanks!

Also, assuming you are correct that the ACLU is going to sue us regardless of what we do, and if our national financial solvency has as much to lose as you say, shouldn't we be making doubly sure that the laws we pass at the local level have the best possible chance at standing up in court? I mean, if we are going to battle shouldnt we go in to win?

To "Scott:"
I am not a supporter of illegal immigration, but based on what I have read and come to understand I dont believe your summary may be only partially accurrate. Based on what I have read the law requires that people pay their way in the form of taxes. We can't know for sure how much people are paying because the law prohibits the IRS from sharing this information with us.

To "Lynn:"
I believe Sheriff Joe does what he does for both punitive and financial reasons. I think he has been doing the pink underwear thing for awhile but the sheer cost of housing all of the undocumented aliens has to have had an influence. That cost has exceeded $500 million dollars according to the Governor of Arizona, Janet Napolitano. At that kind of cost I'd say they are lucky to be getting balogna. Or underwear.

I agree with you that Arizona has a much larger problem with undocumented aliens that we do in Nebraska. You may be aware that they have passed state legislation which supports what they are trying to do and that legislation has stood up in court.

I believe that legislation states that people who knowingly and intentionally (both of which need to be proven) hire undocumented aliens can ultimately lose their license to practice business in the state of Arizona. I believe this legislation is in line Title 8 of the US code, which may be why the Arizona law it has stood up in court, at least in part.

It seems to me that Maricopa County (home of Sheriff Joe) is using county resources to support a state law which was written to support a federal law. Yes, they had to defend themselves in court, but it passed muster. Let's not forget that they have also been willing to pay for it to this point.

Seems like they may have gotten a prybar under that loose board, you know? Sounds like a pretty dang expensive prybar but they've got it under there regardless.

If folks want to hear more about what Arizona is doing I would encourage you to look up their Governor Janet Napolitano on the web and read about what kind of leadership she is providing on this issue. I would also strongly recommend that people go to the web site of the Commonwealth Club of California and search for a webcast of a speech she gave relative to undocumented aliens. This leader has been in the trenches on this issue for many years and has a lot of wisdom to impart to people who may be new to the arena.

Keep talking, keep the ideas flowing. The gorilla isn't tired!
My 2 Cents
Oct 7, 2008 7:30 AM
Thus, if the Arizona laws are standing up in court, we should probably really looking into how they accomplished it and then copy it; which I believe many are trying to do.

What will get us into a bigger mess is if we try to come up with our "own" solution. Look at the state's "new haven law" for example. Instead of following what other states have done, we put our own law together which is now being reviewed as it is not being used as originally intended.

Another solution... Make all citizens prove their identity when signing up for city services such as utilities. Without electricity or gas, many won't stay long.

Proving identity is not as big of a deal as many opponents seem to believe it is. I carry my ss card with me at all times and would have no problem proving who I am or where I am from.
KSG
Oct 7, 2008 7:37 AM
John, I do appreciate you taking the time to converse with the bloggers on this topic, even though sometimes your posts get a little long.

You mentioned a couple times that some people probably should be included in the task force.

However, I know a few that have volunteered, including at least a couple city council people who were for the ordinance, were not given the opportunity to be involved.

Even though the majority of the task force may be open for ideas and discussions, I believe most of the public believes it was set up just to pacify the public and based on some of the members and those who weren’t selected to be a member; I myself wonder as well.
John LaMar
Oct 7, 2008 12:58 PM
To "My 2 Cents:"
You may be on to something there.

To "KSG:"
Thanks for the kind words! And you should have seen the posts before I pared them down. :-)

I did not put the task force together so I cannot comment as to why some people were selected and others were not.

Regardless, people can still be involved. I am pretty sure that any city councilperson would appreciate hearing informed, constructive feedback and ideas from any citizen on how we can deal with this issue. Also, if someone wanted to start a letter writing/email campaign to Senator Nelson and Congressman Fortenberry that would be another way to get the message sent. I think 5,000 emails or letters a day for a week would get someone's attention.

I would like to point out that the two men who launched campaigns for mayor--Wes Holmes (who is on the task force) and Carl Schaffner--were both contacted by me to see what, if any questions they might have for this subcommittee to look into. Both men provided questions, answers to many of which were provided in this and past articles.

I also contacted Wanda Kotas, one of the people leading the petition drive to get the issue on the ballot, to see if she and her fellow organizers had any questions they would like to see the subcommittee look into. Her response was that they had no questions they wanted us to look into.

Not everyone outside the task force may have been aware of that, so thought I would pass it along. I guess the point I am trying to make is that if people want to be involved, they can be.

If we work together, maybe that gorilla will tire sooner. Ya think?
Tex
Oct 7, 2008 3:42 PM
Regarding landlords and I know there are plenty o slumlords in Fremont, however, everywhere that I rented except one place, TENANTS were responsible for getting their own garbage service and keeping the trash picked up
CW
Oct 7, 2008 4:19 PM
Hmmm... How do we know that Fremont has an illegal immigration problem? Well, let's see ... there are millions of illegals in the US as of right now. You would have to be pretty ignorant to think that NONE of them reside here in Fremont ... a town that refuses to do anything about their presence.

I feel that the task force is trying to tell us why we should allow them to be here and do nothing about it. The hospital can't ask the legal status of any person, they only treat them for their illness and release them. Ok, fine ... so why don't we make a law that says that people do have to prove their residency. I'm not saying that if they are illegal we should not treat them ... I propose we take care of their medical issue, and then send them back to whatever country they came here from. They did break the law afterall.

They do pay taxes huh? Yeah sure ... like everyone else said there is a way around everything. Claim more dependents ... when the IRS comes knockin' move and steal someone elses identity. Work for pay under the table ... no taxes there. Live off of the government ... this seems to be popular with legal and illegal residents. Heck the more kids you have the more money the state is willing to fork over. Just keep reproducing and the state will take care of you.

I want to see real research. I'm tired of this ... how much does illegal immigration cost us? Well we dont know. How many illegals are in our town ... again we don't know. How do we solve this problem ... well yet again we dont know ... people have ideas but we shoot them down and instead do nothing except for some half butted research that tell us this ... WE DONT KNOW!
Carl Schaffner
Oct 7, 2008 6:48 PM
Mr. LaMar is correct; I was asked to provide 12 questions for the panel but was never invited to be on the panel, just to be clear. Many of my questions were answered with questions pushing the responsibility of enforcing the law to someone else at another time. The most amusing response from Mr. Lamar’s Panel was when I related having witnessed a woman attempting to acquire a US Passport at the Fremont Post Office the day before. The clerk politely rejected two bogus birth certificates and was in the process of review a third when I left. The task forces response to me was they didn't witness the criminal act so they would need to convene some sort of panel to investigate. So in the Panels Dream World we need to organize a panel for each person committing a crime? Again I say that the approach of waiting for disaster to strike is a fools game and not only impractical but impossible. If that was a US citizen the conversation would have stopped with the first unacceptable document and a warning to obtain originals before returning at the VERY LEAST no, “Gee, that doesn’t look real do you have another birth certificate?”. The only way to end crime is to make it Illegal for everyone and yes, sadly that includes Illegal Aliens…….it’s that simple!
Laughing Gorilla
Oct 7, 2008 8:11 PM
The gorilla won't tire. He's laughing at us. (Some of you will understand.)
John LaMar
Oct 8, 2008 6:57 AM
To "CW:"
One of the purposes of the task force is to inform people of what current laws are and how any action we take must conform to current law. We are trying to ensure that people can have an informed opinion about the issue so that they can make informed decisions about what action they would like to take, whether that is signing a petition, contacting a councilperson, contacting a senator/congressperson or reporting a crime themselves. Nowhere in this article does it say that it is OK to be an undocumented alien or that it is OK to cheat on taxes.

Also, we share your frutration about the inability to determine the number of undocumented aliens living in our community. If we could get an accurate answer to that question it would be a big help.

To Carl Schaffner:
Regarding the passport example you present, here is my response to your original question, sent to you via email, verbatim:

"I don’t believe the subcommittee will be able to answer this question as it relates to this specific case. However, we can research the requirements for obtaining a US passport and what the policy of the US Postal Service is relative to processing passport requests, taking care to address the subject of document requirements and immigration. Will that be satisfactory?"

In a follow-up voice conversation you and I had, I further explained that the reason we would not be able to investigate a specific case is that we were not witnesses to the event--we didnt know the name of the clerk, the date and time it happened, etc. and we didnt think it was appropriate for us to contact the postmaster to report a suspected abuse or potentially a crime without having anything more to go on.

Of course, that does not mean that you--or any other citizen who witnesses a similar event--could not have reported the incident to the postmaster yourself. Which, since you are a responsible citizen, I assume you did. What kind of response did you get?
Tex
Oct 8, 2008 10:27 AM
For those that say you don't pay taxes unless you own a home, or are a citizen. This is mostly an elitist attitude that Fremont has carried for years in regards to homeowners. Renters DO pay property taxes indirectly, everytime those taxes up most rents do too, why do you think that is? Renters are helping to cover that for the landlord. It's indirect but we all contribute to those taxes and they are far from the only taxes we pay people. We pay sales tax on virtually everything we buy, we pay lots of taxes on gas and those smokers pay through the nose literally. So let's get over this-homeowners are special thing. It's ridiculous, we all pay taxes in this country, legal or illegal and homeowner or renter. Get over that!
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